Honest thoughts on anime/manga? (no meme-tier responses)

nobodyworthwhile

Baby Onion
Both here and KF have a lot of people who like to meme "weeb stuff is cringe" or "all anime is bad" but...

What do you reeeeaaaally think?

If you genuinely dislike anime/manga, why? And is there any specific work you would consider drawing an exception for (and for the sake of discussion, I'll allow imaginary/hypothetical examples)?

If you're a fan, what draws you in, and what flaws do you see in the mediums?

My own stance is I've never understood people (both fans and antis) who see either as a monolithic entity. I never understand stuff like looking forward to the upcoming season. For me, if there's something that sounds interesting, I'll give it a spin. Increasingly these days though I tend to favor stuff from the 80s and 90s and see anime as being on a decline, but I'll leave that up to you whether that's got a layer of truth or is just me being a groggy old man.

I also tend to count some authors, like Osamu Tezuka, as almost outside the discussion. His work reads so different from normal manga that its almost more like an alternative comic book. Just read Ayako then try to pick up something like Fish of the North Star or Dragon Ball and you'll see the difference. (I don't recommend his anime though--just his manga).

Anyway, I'll stop before I wind up stealing any potential discussion from everyone.

Your thoughts?
 

Slaughter

FUCK YOU GO OFF YOURSELF YOU KNAVE GODDAMN FORUM FAIRIE
Local Moderator
The late 90s was where anime stopped being good. There's a few standouts, but the 80s and 70s was some of the best shit hands down.

I think the shift towards nonsensical and sex appeal was where things got bad. Back when stories meant something shit was tolerable.

I can't really get into it. But I don't mind the classics.
 

The Gays From LA

The Gays From LA Took My K.Flay Away
Hellovan Onion
There was a little bit of Japanese anime on TV when I was growing up in the 1980s, but I wasn't really into it. My childhood was literally a Disney marathon, those were my absolute favourite cartoons/comics as a kid. Back then, manga wasn't a global industry the way it is today, there were no conventions, there was no cosplaying, none of that stuff. I remember I had a handful of serialized anime comic books, but again, it wasn't my main interest as a kid.

I didn't encounter adult manga until I was 14 or 15. A friend's older brother had hired the notorious Lord of the Overfiend/Urotsukidoji to watch with his friends. My friend, who was way too young, had also seen it, and described some of the scenes to me, which disgusted me but also piqued my interest. I eventually got to see some of those scenes for myself, but I found them way too extreme and horrific, more like an extreme horror movie than anything else. Suffice to say, Lord of the Overfiend was unlike anything I had ever encountered in Western media. I really did end up developing a bias against manga from having seen those highly disturbing scenes. For years I thought that all manga was like that, and avoided it. In my 20s I did try to watch some non-anime Asian feature films but I couldn't get into them. The cultural barrier was too high for me, and I just couldn't relate. I mostly avoided Asian media.

Something happened eventually which changed my negative perception of adult anime being perverse, violent and grotesque. One day in my early-to-mid twenties I spontaneously went to see Ghost in the Shell at an art house cinema. That experience was the literal opposite of Lord of the Overfiend. I was very impressed by GitS. I could definitely see how it had inspired so many other Western sci-fi movies that came thereafter. For me, that was the first time I was confronted with the true artistic and cinematic potential of anime.

It was only in my 30s that I really made an effort to watch some of the most representative feature length anime movies by Studio Ghibli and others By then I had learned more a bit more about the Japanese culture and the language, so these features were easier to get into this time. I now understand that anime is very diverse in content and quality. I never got into any series. I'm more of a movie watcher myself, I never have the time to get into a whole series of anything.

If I had to describe my opinion of manga/anime at this point, I would say that there are definitely some masterpieces that people should be familiar with the way they familiarize themselves with other iconic or foundational works of art or cinema, but there's way too much badly drawn derivative commercial shlock out there. But that's also true of Western genres like romance, sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc, so it isn't specific to anime.
The entertainment industries as a whole are more exploitative.

I eventually read a "pop psy" article online speculating about why anime is so attractive to autistic people. If I remember correctly, it said something to the effect that anime characters have big eyes and exaggerated responses/grimaces, which are convenient to autistic people who have a hard time reading social cues otherwise.

When I began to research TRAs, I discovered that there was this very dark internet underground of autistic young men self-medicating with darknet HRT, who want to turn themselves into girlie anime characters as a form of perpetual self-infantilization or "bimbofication". I was quite alarmed when I discovered this "subculture" of young men who want to be stupid and helpless, a subculture which seems to intersect with conventions and the cosplaying scene. I do think there is a general tendency in our culture towards self-infantilization, learned helplessness, people clinging onto their mental illnesses instead of learning to cope with them, etc. I don't think that this general tendency is exclusively the fault of Western kids having access to Japanese anime. Based on what little contemporary hentai I had the misfortune of encountering online, I do think that genre has become more disturbing and extreme than ever, and immensely worse than the Urotsukidoji I had encountered when I was 15.

A while back I saw this video on Youtube about a new(?) or alternative genre of manga that is even more extreme than adult manga itself, called gekiga or "surreal/absurd manga". I think it was on the Youtube channel Kayfabe Cartoonist that I saw a video of someone going through one of these gekiga comics, which he had picked up in Japan. It was highly disturbing, just visual extremism of the sake of shock value.

I know there's anime for children and anime for adults in Japan but I wonder if people in the West who consume such foreign media are even aware of that distinction. They don't seem to observe it, and thus a lot of material that is completely inappropriate for minors, nevertheless ends up before the eyes of minors because in the West anything that looks like a comic or cartoon is still mostly associated with children.

Suffice to say, I do not subscribe to any of the dumb racist xenophobic KiwiFarms conspiracy theories about Japan exporting its degenerate media to the West in order to fuck up Western children and make them go trans with gender confusion. I think a lot of anime actually promote far better and healthier norms and values than hyperviolent Western cartoons/comics that many Western parents feel perfectly comfortable showing to their kids. I think it all goes back to parental neglect and people having kids they don't actually plan on raising.
It's the racists on KF who prefer this simplistic self-victimizing narrative of poor, gullible white children deliberately fucked up by the evil Japanese degenerate cartoons. You could argue that for example The Secret Life Of Pets (where a dog "transitions" into a cat, which is literally a trans narrative smuggled into a children's cartoon) is more corrupting than the Japanese stuff, yet it has an "all" rating.
 

nobodyworthwhile

Baby Onion
I think the shift towards nonsensical and sex appeal was where things got bad. Back when stories meant something shit was tolerable.
This I agree with. Something like this anime, the nudity near the beginning is clearly fanservice, but since the actual story is solid and has substance, you can forgive it. But way too many I find the authors can't stop being horny little bastards and fit it in where it makes no sense or just isn't right.

And someone elsewhere said a problem with anime (and most modern media) is we went from authors who had life experience outside of anime to authors whose entire life IS anime, and that's resulted in the media itself becoming more vacuous, similar to what we see in the west: instead of the work being able to comment on life, social relationships, or things the general audience can understand, it instead is all "man isn't it weird how a lot of anime have this story?" When I see a title like "I'm in love with a villainess!" I cringe.

A while back I saw this video on Youtube about a new(?) or alternative genre of manga that is even more extreme than adult manga itself, called gekiga or "surreal/absurd manga". I think it was on the Youtube channel Kayfabe Cartoonist that I saw a video of someone going through one of these gekiga comics, which he had picked up in Japan. It was highly disturbing, just visual extremism of the sake of shock value.
To set the record straight here, Gekiga began in the 1970s and was kind of an "alternative" manga, but really it was kind of a rebrand--"manga" at the time had the stigma of being "for children." Sort of like the word "cartoons" in the west (or indeed, the word "comic books"--and its very similar to how in the west people pushed the term "graphic novel" to essentially signal that their work wasn't for kids).

While the label did not stick around IIRC, gekiga did have an influence and is responsible for manga becoming more all-ages and having multiple demographics, although stuff for children is still the primary source of revenue.
 

Crimson Fucker

Ţepeş
Hellovan Onion
I just watch it like any other media. If i like it i watch it if not then i don't. All anime is cartoons but not all cartoons are anime, like all manga are comic but not all comics are manga. A lot of the aspects people dislike in one are often found in the other as well depending on where you look. I try and keep an open mind. I watched other foreign media as well and enjoyed it so anime isn't much different. A lot of other countries feel the same about American media with both the extremes like anime and manga in the west. I simply see it as Japan being successful with a niche in international media like Hollywood movies have.
 

BurnerAccount333

Straightest Gay
Hellovan Onion
What do you reeeeaaaally think?
Enjoyment:
I think anime is fun, and I really like a lot the elements and beats of anime. I love giant anime tits doing badass stuff, and I love some of the universes so much. I listen to a lot anime music, and I like a lot genres of anime. I liked some of the early romance animes I watched, and thought it was so fucking cool whenever it was narrating some fight -- explaining stupid fantasy logic. I even like a lot the current stuff nowadays, though it doesn't hit the same charm it used to.

Early anime was quite something: A lot of was terrible, and a lot of the classics everyone loves actually has elements people constantly complain about nowadays (see: original dragon ball actually) but it was the only thing we had at the time. We would endlessly discuss and obsess over what little we had and that was so cool to me. I miss it.

Community:
But I think the elephant in the room, especially around these communities, is the degeneracy that is often around it.
I can't change anyone's view on that, but I'll give my perspective.
Growing up with the anime community, and early internet in general, I saw a lot weird things. In fact I think a major difference between generations is that my generation on the net would actively send each other the most fucked up shit you could imagine. It was a time when people would openly trick others into watching Boku no Pico.

So it gave me a lot unique perspectives, but also the community in general gave me a appreciation for art. For all the shock-content spammed I saw a lot cute things, like cat-girls on an ocean planet. And a lot anime forums can also be thanked from me understanding the dangers of censorship, especially now because it actually happens before my eyes.

It made me accept, and arguably grow, to understand some things will be gross but you can't just get rid of them without more problems occurring.
Further it explained to me why it's bad to just cut out content you might find disagreeable because what production does is look at those titles that censored their games and say: "Well this game censored these elements, so why can't we?" And this extends past loli mind you.
But it further provided to me the knowledge and perspective that people complaining about fetishes are usually projecting and far worse. I mean there's difference between saying I hate footfags and you going out of your way to bully footfags, even if they deserve it.

I'd like though to share a more personal note: A lot my peers grew up to have families and are completely functional, but I've know more fans of anime to sadly just off-themselves than any other group. Most of them I didn't know that well, but it's a trend I noticed.
And if there's ever been something that has truly made it difficult for me to judge others it's knowing some of the people I used to know killed themselves because they were so obsessed with anime they legitimately couldn't look at actual woman without puking because they thought human beings looked disgusting: This fact cemented to me two things.
  • That fantasy can be just that, fantasy, and that harm can be prevented by fantasy.​
    • It also can so powerful it will literally fuck someone's brain so much they can't even look at actual human being without actually puking.​
  • It can be said it made me incredibly indifferent towards kinks, despite TMI I can't even do anal with my boyfriend because I'm too weak stomach'd for anything even remotely gross despite being gay.​
    • I'd rather just not know, and I think that policy is usually the best. The person whom tries to keep their fetishes on the down-low, or at the very least isn't making their personality, is probably harmless and I don't have to puke seeing their bizarre fetishes.​
EDITED, PARAGRAPHS REMOVED

When I began to research TRAs, I discovered that there was this very dark internet underground of autistic young men self-medicating with darknet HRT, who want to turn themselves into girlie anime characters as a form of perpetual self-infantilization or "bimbofication". I was quite alarmed when I discovered this "subculture" of young men who want to be stupid and helpless, a subculture which seems to intersect with conventions and the cosplaying scene. I do think there is a general tendency in our culture towards self-infantilization, learned helplessness, people clinging onto their mental illnesses instead of learning to cope with them, etc. I don't think that this general tendency is exclusively the fault of Western kids having access to Japanese anime. Based on what little contemporary hentai I had the misfortune of encountering online, I do think that genre has become more disturbing and extreme than ever, and immensely worse than the Urotsukidoji I had encountered when I was 15.

A while back I saw this video on Youtube about a new(?) or alternative genre of manga that is even more extreme than adult manga itself, called gekiga or "surreal/absurd manga". I think it was on the Youtube channel Kayfabe Cartoonist that I saw a video of someone going through one of these gekiga comics, which he had picked up in Japan. It was highly disturbing, just visual extremism of the sake of shock value.

I know there's anime for children and anime for adults in Japan but I wonder if people in the West who consume such foreign media are even aware of that distinction. They don't seem to observe it, and thus a lot of material that is completely inappropriate for minors, nevertheless ends up before the eyes of minors because in the West anything that looks like a comic or cartoon is still mostly associated with children.
Fun fact: Anime was, and still is actually, a nerd-hobby in Japan. It's like comic books for us, sure a lot people dress up and you have some advertising and events for it but it's not actually as universally popular as some people like to believe.
In fact despite Japan being anti-tattoo -- getting an anime tattoo is a way for people to think you're just autistic and harmless.

But in my experience most western anime fans think all anime is for adults.

But I actually wanted to ask you something, @The Gays From LA.
How the fuck were we so openly retarded, fucking around with gross-shit and shock-content, being incredibly fucking edgy to the point we had sub-cultures of people openly talking about self-harm as a way to express how much they hate the world and then people bullying them and calling them "emo-queer-fucks." Yet surprisingly a lot of us actually ended up pretty well and all things considered, over-correcting if anything, and in fact people generally miss that era -- even people who didn't experience it.
Yet this new generation dealing with the progressively sterilized, clean, internet somehow ended up so fucked we don't even know where to begin.
I know zoomers are the loneliest generation but holy fuck it's completely unreal how fucking insane they got.
 
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The Gays From LA

The Gays From LA Took My K.Flay Away
Hellovan Onion
But I actually wanted to ask you something, @The Gays From LA.
How the fuck were we so openly retarded, fucking around with gross-shit and shock-content, being incredibly fucking edgy to the point we had sub-cultures of people openly talking about self-harm as a way to express how much they hate the world and then people bullying them and calling them "emo-queer-fucks." Yet surprisingly a lot of us actually ended up pretty well and all things considered, over-correcting if anything, and in fact people generally miss that era -- even people who didn't experience it.
Yet this new generation dealing with the progressively sterilized, clean, internet somehow ended up so fucked we don't even know where to begin.
I know zoomers are the loneliest generation but holy fuck it's completely unreal how fucking insane they got.

I think it's a whole number of things: early access to the internet, bullying, isolation, having access to different friend groups instead of just one single hyper-focussed group, having the time and resources to pursue different interests, raising kids with a sense of empowerment (meaning: knowing what's out there in the world and how to get it AND how to figure it out, which is "thinking about your own thinking"), parental neglect/involvement, medicalization of kids, helicopter parenting, etc. It's all these issues coming together.

Also TMI,
a lot of gay men do not practice any anal sex at all. A lot of them think it's gross, painful and dangerous. Stop trying to copy what you see in porn. Porn has nothing whatsoever to do with how real people have real sex IRL. Those porno guys have to walk around with a rubber duck up their ass for a half day to dilate their ass, and then they have to to inject half a bottle of lube right into their rectum to be able to take a dick up the ass and it look effortless and spontaneous on video. It's all prepped and staged. That's the magic of filmmaking and you shouldn't fall for it. Every porn movie should come with a "don't try this at home" warning.
 

nobodyworthwhile

Baby Onion
Some of it is good. A lot of it is bad but some of it is good.

Modern anime is totally uninteresting to me tbh.
Honestly I agree and I really only watch modern when with friends who are into it.

My big problem is two things:

One, anime is incestuous in that so much feels like just the same story over and over. Not in terms of vague similarities, but literally entire characters and arcs being repeated almost verbatim, to the point where you can probably even tell what facial expression or exact words anyone will use at any time. To be fair this is a problem most media have.

Two, it feels like we never really get media that tries or experiments anymore. Everything nowadays feels like its just pandering to tards with quirkiness or Waifus.

This I guess leads to a vague third thing, again not something unique to anime but its more disappointing because anime held out for awhle.... we've finally started to get "meta" anime, where instead of the stories, themes, and discussions being things people can relate to, now its mostly things NERDS relate to. When I see a title like "I'm in Love With a Villainess," I cringe.

Most of the best anime are things I watch because they're things I can still understand/relate to on some level. Most anime today though feel like they're on about something that's alien to me.
 

BurnerAccount333

Straightest Gay
Hellovan Onion
One, anime is incestuous in that so much feels like just the same story over and over. Not in terms of vague similarities, but literally entire characters and arcs being repeated almost verbatim, to the point where you can probably even tell what facial expression or exact words anyone will use at any time. To be fair this is a problem most media have.
While I can't speak for the entire culture I can share some insight.
It's because they like things to be the same, just slightly different.
In Table-Talk RPGs, they call them table-talk instead of tabletop, they actually prefer and attempt to follow cliche and complete tropes of characters. Compared to Western Table-Top RPGs where players tend to want original characters that are some form of twist.
In my opinion both are rarely original, just one accepts their play isn't original and prefers that.

Two, it feels like we never really get media that tries or experiments anymore. Everything nowadays feels like its just pandering to tards with quirkiness or Waifus.

This I guess leads to a vague third thing, again not something unique to anime but its more disappointing because anime held out for awhle.... we've finally started to get "meta" anime, where instead of the stories, themes, and discussions being things people can relate to, now its mostly things NERDS relate to. When I see a title like "I'm in Love With a Villainess," I cringe.

Most of the best anime are things I watch because they're things I can still understand/relate to on some level. Most anime today though feel like they're on about something that's alien to me.
It's cheaper to produce, and sells decently well. Remember 80% of any media is usually terrible.
But I think current popularity of anime can be attributed to escapism for many, but also because simple concepts are easy to sell to people."Do you want a dinosaur girlfriend?" And then the answer is literally just yes or no.
 

nobodyworthwhile

Baby Onion
It's because they like things to be the same, just slightly different.
Yeah, I've heard that Japanese society is basically really similar to how Tolkien described Hobbits: They like things safe, familiar, expected, and its a rare hobbit who genuinely wants adventures.

With a lot of anime I also suspect its just business--with millions of authors each year, obviously some are gonna be repeats.

I used to have this take about the anime fandom in the west: One reason anime used to have this mystique is we used to get a curated selection. Back in the days of AD Vision, Viz Video, Central Park Media and AnimEigo, companies were way more picky and chose stuff that would stand out, basically ignoring the hundreds of "here's toy tie-in mecha show #100" or, at worst, using a movie to gauge the potential to release the full series (I recall we actually got the Yuyu Hakusho movies before ever getting the actual show).

But over time, that changed. Nowadays, whether officially or not, literally anything that plays on Japanese television has an English release somehow, with all of it being extensively catalogued. And its easy to both feel overwhelmed by choices, but also start to notice that a lot of anime really sucks.

Like, back in the 1990s, anything having "anime" on it was a reason to celebrate. I recall this was the whole reason anyone was interested in the Lunar games for Sega CD. "Anime... AND its an RPG?" Nowadays though, we know literally every RPG is basically anime by default and this isn't even special anymore.

I'm not sure there's anything to be done about this though, or indeed if this is really a "bad" thing so much as just personally disappointing from the POV of someone who grew up under the old standard.
 

BurnerAccount333

Straightest Gay
Hellovan Onion
Yeah, I've heard that Japanese society is basically really similar to how Tolkien described Hobbits: They like things safe, familiar, expected, and its a rare hobbit who genuinely wants adventures.

With a lot of anime I also suspect its just business--with millions of authors each year, obviously some are gonna be repeats.

I used to have this take about the anime fandom in the west: One reason anime used to have this mystique is we used to get a curated selection. Back in the days of AD Vision, Viz Video, Central Park Media and AnimEigo, companies were way more picky and chose stuff that would stand out, basically ignoring the hundreds of "here's toy tie-in mecha show #100" or, at worst, using a movie to gauge the potential to release the full series (I recall we actually got the Yuyu Hakusho movies before ever getting the actual show).

But over time, that changed. Nowadays, whether officially or not, literally anything that plays on Japanese television has an English release somehow, with all of it being extensively catalogued. And its easy to both feel overwhelmed by choices, but also start to notice that a lot of anime really sucks.

Like, back in the 1990s, anything having "anime" on it was a reason to celebrate. I recall this was the whole reason anyone was interested in the Lunar games for Sega CD. "Anime... AND its an RPG?" Nowadays though, we know literally every RPG is basically anime by default and this isn't even special anymore.

I'm not sure there's anything to be done about this though, or indeed if this is really a "bad" thing so much as just personally disappointing from the POV of someone who grew up under the old standard.
Yeah, your description sounds about right. A good example of how general reserved japanese culture can be.
Japan follows a tradition: "Mind your business. If you don't like seeing my manga go somewhere else."

Funny enough you hit it on the end: Remember Elfen Lied? That anime was actually not popular at all in japan when it came out, and in fact it's only popular in the states. They thought Elfen Lied was terrible while in america everyone thought it was deepest show ever.
In fact shows that were popular in america weren't as popular in japan, we celebrated them because it was all we had.

Final thoughts:
But over time, that changed. Nowadays, whether officially or not, literally anything that plays on Japanese television has an English release somehow, with all of it being extensively catalogued. And its easy to both feel overwhelmed by choices, but also start to notice that a lot of anime really sucks.
Attack on Titan and its consequences has been a disaster for the medium of Japanese animation.
 

Crimson Fucker

Ţepeş
Hellovan Onion
A lot of anime contains barely disguised fetishes. Attack on titan has a vore fetish. Bleach author has a spit fetish. Hellsing author has a nazi rape fetish. But to be fair Dan the foot fetish man barely disguised his working for nick.
 

BurnerAccount333

Straightest Gay
Hellovan Onion
Why single out Titan specifically?
You know how nerd culture becoming popular is blamed on the Big Bang Theory?
How Critical Roll is blamed for D&D getting popular?
How mobile phones are blamed for the internet getting worse?

AoT is that for anime fans, AoT is blamed for anime becoming popular.
A lot of anime contains barely disguised fetishes. Attack on titan has a vore fetish. Bleach author has a spit fetish. Hellsing author has a nazi rape fetish. But to be fair Dan the foot fetish man barely disguised his working for nick.
A lot popular media in the western world is also barely disguised fetishes, see Xenomorphs.
It honestly should be expected: Weird people are creatively enough to create creative stories, and creative stories can be enjoyable. It's like a balancing act: The closer to insanity you get the cooler your fiction can be, but also how fucked you can be.
 

Crimson Fucker

Ţepeş
Hellovan Onion
You know how nerd culture becoming popular is blamed on the Big Bang Theory?
How Critical Roll is blamed for D&D getting popular?
How mobile phones are blamed for the internet getting worse?

AoT is that for anime fans, AoT is blamed for anime becoming popular.

A lot popular media in the western world is also barely disguised fetishes, see Xenomorphs.
It honestly should be expected: Weird people are creatively enough to create creative stories, and creative stories can be enjoyable. It's like a balancing act: The closer to insanity you get the cooler your fiction can be, but also how fucked you can be.
Yeah, the fun part is finding it and calling it. Like the marvel super hero that can become a really fat girl and controlling her body fat to be skinny or fat at will. I assume that's fat/feeder/inflation fetish. Sometimes anime doesn't hide it at all though and generally are more open about it. Not that you can't find the same thing in the west. It's just sometimes the studios make them hide it more if they are trying to be family friendly. But adult shows like Rick and Morty do not hide their incest fetish at all and get to go all in. Nick with their footprint logo is much more subtle than giant incest baby in space but still a red flag in hindsight.
 

BurnerAccount333

Straightest Gay
Hellovan Onion
But adult shows like Rick and Morty do not hide their incest fetish at all and get to go all in.
I wish I had this image still but a lot cartoons in the west for some reason are really obsessed with incest.
Like Ben 10 has an entire arc where it was Gwen and Ben getting dangerously close, and there was an entire episode about them dancing together.
 

nobodyworthwhile

Baby Onion
AoT is that for anime fans, AoT is blamed for anime becoming popular.
I... find that really does not hold up.

Probably because I'm an oldfag who remembers the days of shopping for anime at Suncoast (mid-to-late 1990s), but the boom from "niche" to "mainstream" actually began with Pokemon. The switch from it being called "Japanimation" to being called "Anime" happened almost right after the Pokemon boom. Then suddenly we started getting more shows, DVDs became easier to find, and even Shonen Jump started publishing in the US.

Anime was already pretty established before Attack on Titan was even a thing.

and generally now unironically a few times better than anything coming from anywhere else currently. especially the west. Yeah, I said it.
I think this has long been one of the reasons people gravitate to anime. Even in my time I recall the deal was people just weren't satisfied with what westerners were doing.
 
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